Need some inputs/ advice on new amp purchase

[Bandmaster]

I am looking for some advice/ inputs from you guys. I just got offered a really nice '66 Pro Reverb in remarkable condition, it is a 9.75 out of 10. All original except the output transformer. The current owner bought it 20 years ago from the original owner. It seems like the original owner had the broken OT changed because the current owner didn't know anything about date codes and according to him he had nothing ever done to the amp besides some new tubes (all NOS tubes). It is exactly the same Schumacher OT just not from 1966, the date code says 3rd week of 1970.
The amp sound great, the spec on the OT is the same, but I heard the value really drops due to that changed OT. Everything else is all original and I am sure that in the near future it needs some service down the road.
What is your take on the changed (4 years younger) OT? How do you feel about that?

 

[Voodoosound]

Assuming everything else is indeed correct. If you’re not paying the premium for the all correct amp. I say the transformer is not a big deal. In fact it could be a plus. If it’s not an issue for you and some day you decide to sell it. You find the correct date code transformer and have it replaced.

 

[FlyingVBlues]

I agree with Rob that the replaced transformer is not an issue. I own a lot of vintage amps and guitars, and if you look at them from the perspective of being a collectors item originality is important. I know several people with 1958 to 1960 Les Paul's with badly worn frets who won't get them re-fretted because that would decrease the value of their guitars. That has always seemed ridiculous to me. If you're a musician and you use an amp or guitar to actually play music instead of viewing it as an investment you are eventually going to run into maintenance issues that may require replacing original parts. For example, the electrolytic fluid inside of an amps filter caps can dry out or degrade, and in some cases they will bulge or leak, and they will need to be replaced. No one would think that replacing failing filter caps would decrease the value of an amp. I think the same thing applies to any other failed component of an amp or guitar. As long as you disclose that one of the transformers has been replaced if you ever decide to sell the amp I don’t think that would have any impact for most people considering buying a vintage amp. On the other hand, modifying an amp for other reasons may either decrease or increase the value, depending on the nature of the change. For example, Alexander Dumble’s ultraphonix mods to Fender amps, which involved significant changes to the circuit and electronics, greatly increased the value of the donor amps. And on the other side, there are certainly lots of examples where poorly done mods clearly reduce the value of an amp or guitar.

 

[Anje]

From my experience, replaced OT on a vintage amp in general is most of the time a big deal VS resale value. That's seen as probably one of the most impactful single component in an old amp, that usually can not be easily, if at all, replicated. And they are not considered "maintenance" components that normally wear out and need to be replaced regularly, like filter caps or frets on a guitar.
I'd say roughly -30/50% VS a similar good condition all original amp.
If the replaced OT is another old original OT from same manufacturer and another / close period, that can decrease the impact; even more so if that's exactly the same right period correct model (but be careful, those components usually went through changes over the years, even when from the same manufacturer; I'm no expert on old Fender though so can't comment on your particular example sorry).

That doesn't mean it is not a great amp, just be sure not to pay the premium collector price of a similar condition amp that is 100% original.

 

[FlyingVBlues]

Schumacher OT’s are known to be somewhat prone to failure in vintage Fender amps due to degradation of their insulation after many years of use. The primary and secondary windings are made with very thin gauge wire and the insulation is susceptible to cracking or breaking over time due to repeated exposure to heat and vibration. Occasionally the Schumacher OT’s will also fail due to either excessive voltage or power quality issues. The Pro Reverb was designed to operate on 117 volts (the standard voltage from a power outlet in 1965 when the Pro Reverb was introduced). However, the amp will run on a wider voltage range of around 110 to 125 volts, although that is not optimal.

I always use an AmpRx BrownBox, an adjustable AC power supply that I set to 117 volts, and a Furman AR-1215 Voltage Regulator/Power Conditioner with my vintage Fender amps to prevent those problems as much as possible.
,

 

[Anje]

Agree, in any case making sure the amp is seeing the proper safe / optimum input power voltage is important, even more so on old amps that were designed to run on lower voltages than what can be found in some places those days.

I'm really not an expert in old Fender amps, my happy place is more the UK/EU brands.
Changed OT in a 60's Marshall is a major big deal for sure.

 

[Bandmaster]

Thanks for all your inputs. The current owner is asking premium price since the amp is in great condition, talked to him about the changed OT. He was not aware and I believe him. He bought it from the original owner about 20 years ago. For collectors I think it is a big issue even though the replacement is really the same model (same looks) and spec, just 4 years younger.
I know the situation with Dumble, my two Rockphonix amps don't have the original transformers and components, maybe a few parts like the eyelet board, pots.... But being built by Dumble the value on both increased tremendously. I bought the Bandmaster head as a donor for 500$ in very good condition. I didn't worry about the parts inside since I knew Alexander will change them anyway. But should have kept the original OT which was from 1965 and it's the same used in the Pro Reverb. Now it would be useful to install it in the ProReverb, 1 years older is better than 4 years younger
The owner is open for a reduction on the price, but we both not sure what's a fair reduction.
It is an export model and maybe this amp has seen higher voltage one day as selected and burned out the OT.
It's a great amp, I just need to figure out what's a fair price to pay.

 

[FlyingVBlues]

On Reverb’s Price Guide for a 1965 – 1967 Pro Reverb in excellent condition they give an estimated price range of $2,352 - $3,130 and state that a price of $2,741 is a great value. The major caveat is their estimate is based on only 2 sales. However, it is still useful as a starting point in determining what the amp is worth.

Reverb currently has 41 1965 – 1967 Pro Reverb’s for sale, and the prices for amps described as Excellent or Mint are all over the place. Here’s a link for those amps:

https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=Fender%20Black%20Panel%20Pro%20Reverb%202-Channel%2040-Watt%202x12%22%20Guitar%20Combo%201965%20-%201967

The asking prices for these amps may give you better information than the price guide.

 

[Anje]

When using Reverb to assess the "fair value" of something, here's what I usually do:

First look for any close / relevant "price guide" product page, extend price history to the max (now 2 years is the max unfortunately), and look for the graph; if enough transaction history data that gives a first good average & trend estimate as a baseline.
=> you have one such page for 65-66 Pro Reverb:

https://reverb.com/p/fender-black-panel-pro-reverb-2-channel-40-watt-2x12-guitar-combo-1965-1967

Long term trend for the last year or so looks quite stable to me, with an about $2500 average. You can see min/max monthly average variations.
List of actual past transaction selling prices on the right can give more precise data points, but unfortunately that doesn't link to the actual related sale pages to check the specifics of each particular sale (important in such things as old vintage gear). You would have to look for the past sale transactions in the search engine one by one to make the link.

If no relevant gear price guide / history page, best input to me is to look at "sold" listings in the search engine; it now seems Reverb is showing the actual sold price; much more relevant to me usually than looking at asking prices that can be all over the place and often way off VS the actual sold prices (ifever gear sales).
Ebay can be used in the same way.

 

[Bandmaster]

So I had a discussion with the owner, he doesn't want to lower the asking price, which is $ 3500. He wants to wait till somebody comes around and buys it as is. I wished him good luck.
Thanks for all of your inputs and guidance.

 

[Anje]

; it now seems Reverb is showing the actual sold price;

Sharing a quick headsup/update here on that particular point:
I have checked on few recent purchases, it looks like I was wrong; Reverb is NOT displaying the actual selling price when looking at the « sold » listing.